Note Tracker definitions

[devolveNZ]

I have created some tourney note tracker definitions and have some questions:

For a start I created: (i have used square brackets to denote each filter added)
3Bet from the blinds
Player: [Rasied Preflop Any 3Bet] AND [Postion of Active Position of selected between 8 and 9]
3Bet in position
Player: [Rasied Preflop Any 3Bet] AND [Postion of Active Position of Less than or Equal to 7]
3Bet Shove 15bb+
Player: [(Rasied Preflop Any 3Bet) AND (Raised All-in)] AND [Effective Size Big Blinds Between 15 and 99999]
3Bet verse Hero
Player: Rasied Preflop Any 3Bet
Opponent: (Player is Hero) AND (Raised Preflop Any 2Bet)

The follow hand shows 2 problems:

Merge - $40,000+$4,000.00|<> NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
SB: 12,062.00
Hero (BB): 58,921.00
UTG: 48,076.00
UTG+1: 32,809.00
MP: 22,676.00
CO: 125,328.00
BTN: 43,865.00 (OrientExpress)
SB posts ante 200.00, Hero posts ante 200.00, UTG posts ante 200.00, UTG+1 posts ante 200.00, MP posts ante 200.00, CO posts ante 200.00, BTN posts ante 200.00, SB posts SB 1,000.00, Hero posts BB 2,000.00
Pre Flop: (pot: 4400.00) Hero has A T
fold, fold, fold, CO raises to 4,000.00, BTN raises to 43,665.00 and is all-in, fold, fold, CO calls 39,665.00
Flop: (91730.00, 2 players) 8 5 2
Turn: (91730.00, 2 players) 2
River: (91730.00, 2 players) K
CO shows T T (Two Pair, Tens and Twos) (Pre 72%, Flop 47%, Turn 70%)
BTN shows A 8 (Flush, Ace High) (Pre 28%, Flop 53%, Turn 30%)
BTN wins 91,730.00

When running the note tracker test, the following output was generated:
Test Results for 'All Active Automatic Note Rules' ...
AutoNote: Hand #56466469-224: Player: OrientExpressSP9 Note: tny: 3Bet in position {cardrange:A8s}
AutoNote: Hand #56466469-224: Player: OrientExpressSP9 Note: tny: 3Bet v Hero {cardrange:A8s}
AutoNote: Hand #56466469-224: Player: llIIIllIIIllIIIllIII Note: tny: Call 3Bet {cardrange:TT}
Total time: 62ms Per Hand Avg: 62ms

1) 3Bet v Hero should not have been triggered, I noticed all 3bets have triggered the 3bet v hero regardless of whether
i was the 2better or not.

2) 3Bet Shove 15bb+ was not triggered, OrientExpress had 22bb and 3bet shoved, I think this should be been triggered.
I noticed in PT3 the effective stack was calculated as the lowest stack preflop. I hope this method is not being used. The
effective stack should be the lowest between your stack, and the highest remaining stack in the hand.

[kraada]

(1) This is a known issue with all Opponent notes that we are working on fixing. At the moment, the Opponent filters are simply not being used.

(2) The preflop effective stack was a little over 12BB because the SB was that short, which is why that did not trigger. Once opponent is fixed you want to make sure that Player and Opponent (who raised) have 15BB or more, and that will give you what I think you want to see.

[devolveNZ]

Regarding question (2) I unfortunately don't agree.

In the above example the player stack sizes in big blinds and actions are:

SB: 6.0 BBs
BB: 29.5 BBs
UTG: 24.0 BBs (folded)
UTG+1: 16.4 BBs (folded)
MP: 11.3 BBs (folded)
CO: 62.7 BBs (CO raises to 2BBs)
BTN: 22.0 BBs (BTN raises to 22 BBs and is all-in)

BTN (OrientExpressSP9) has 22bbs, and is playing his whole stack against more than one other player still in the hand.
The BTN is still risking his entire stack so has an effective stack of 22bbs regardless of the short stacked SB.

Correct me if I'm wrong but a players effective stack is defined as the proportion of their stack at risk, and as I said in my first post should be:

The effective stack should be the lowest between your stack, and the highest remaining stack in the hand.

I don't believe that the effective stack should be the value of the Small Blinds stack, if they have more of their
stack at risk against another player still in the hand.

In the above example, if you were to change the SB's stack to 1 bb, then using your logic, everybody would be
playing a 1bb effective stack. This seems flawed.

As I said

I noticed in PT3 the effective stack was calculated as the lowest stack preflop.

I don't believe this method gives a useful figure.

[kraada]

I agree that method does not give you the figure you want, but it is currently how PokerTracker calculates. This is because we store one effective stack size per street. Since we can only have one value for the entire preflop section, the number we choose is based on the stack size of the smallest player, regardless of who it is or when they fold.

[devolveNZ]

A possible better way would be to calculate the players effective stack for each street at the time they first act,
so for the above example the effective stacks would be:

UTG: 24.0 BBs (folded) (24 effective BBs)
UTG+1: 16.4 BBs (folded) (16.4 effective BBs)
MP: 11.3 BBs (folded) (11.3 effective BBs)
CO: 62.7 BBs (CO raises to 2BBs) (29.5 effective BBs)
BTN: 22.0 BBs (BTN raises to 22 BBs and is all-in) (22.0 effective BBs)
SB: 6.0 BBs (6 effective BBs)
BB: 29.5 BBs (29.5 effective BBs)

[kraada]

I understand, that would require a change to the database in order to happen. We may do it at some point, but that is a large change and at the moment we are trying to stabilize PokerTracker 4 for commercial release, so I do not see that happening in the short to medium term.

[devolveNZ]

I noticed the PokerTracker 4.01.22 – July 2, 2012 update has changed the way the effective stack size is calculated.
This sounds very promising. Can you tell me what method is being used?

Thanks Greg

[WhiteRider]

Effective stack is now stored for each player, based on the amount of money (or chips) they could lose at the time of their first action on each street. Players who have folded before the player acts are not counted.
This means it will either be the player's entire stack if anyone else still in the hand at that time has a deeper stack, or the size of the second deepest stack if the player is the deepest remaining stack.

Note: these values are calculated at import time, so won't affect existing databases. To use the new values in stats or filters you will need to create a new database and reimport your hands. See the Special Notes in the release notes post.

[preparac]

Hi
I saw in your release notes 4.01.22 BETA this:
CHANGE: Revised calculation method for Effective Stack Size to allow the use of the new Tournament HUD Filters
Does this affect notetrackers effective stack definition?

[WhiteRider]

The change affects the data stored in the database, so it affect everything.