3Bet range vs position X

[PeteX]

I want to create a note that shows 3Bet ranges vs different opening positions for 6max turbo SNGs. So there will be 5 different notes, like "3Bet vs EP Opener", "3Bet vs MP Opener" etc. I don't want to include cases where the open raises are all-ins or 3bets are all-ins because it's a huge difference whether all-ins are involved or not in SNGs. And I only want to include cases where the opponent open-raised and not just raised after limpers. And I want to look at only 4-6 player hands because the bubble and heads-up play dynamics are so much different from 4-6 way play IMO.

My definition for a note (foe example: 3Bet vs MP Open) is like this:

Player (vs MP he can be in CO, BTN, SB or BB, I don't care so no position filter here):
a) Players Dealt Into Hand Between 4 And 6
-> We should get only 4-6 player hands.

b) First Preflop Action Raise
-> Make sure to exclude cases where player limp-raises, raise must always be his first action.

c) Reraise Opportunity 3Bet (Facing 2Bet)
-> There is only one raise when the action comes to player. Not really sure if I need to have this, because there is already 3Bet mentioned in next filter.

d) Raised Preflop Any 3Bet
-> Player 3Bet, but could have shoved also and I don't want to include shoves.

e) NOT (Raised All-In) <- Not sure about if this works correctly...
-> Are we excluding only 3bet shoves here? What if player 3bets non-ai, then gets 4-bet and then 5-bet shoves and we see his hole cards; I would like to include that hand but does this filter exclude it because the 5bet was an all-in?

Opponent:
a) Position of Active Player of Selected Exactly 2
-> I'm not 100% sure if I should use "Active Player", "First Raiser" or "Lead Agressor"? Is the "Active Player" here the open raiser (=opponent) or 3bettor (=player)? Position 2 should be ok for MP.

b) Raised First In
-> Does this mean only open-raise or would it also include cases where there were limpers before the raiser? If so, then maybe I need to change this to First Preflop Action Raise and that Opponent had open opportunity preflop to make sure it really is an open-raise?

c) NOT (Raised All-In) <-- not sure if this works either as intended, to exclude only openshoves?
-> I want to exclude cases where the open-raiser just open-shoved. But does this also exclude cases where opener open-raised, then got 3bet and then 4bet shoved? In other words, does the "Raised All-In" cover only the first raise or does it cover also further raises that could be shoves?

?) Hmm... what if I add "Opportunity to 4Bet" here? Would that make sure that initial raise and 3Bet were not all-ins? But what if MP openrases, then player 3Bets and then someone else 4Bet shoves -> Then initial opener would not have 4Bet opportunity, so this would exclude such case, right?

I'm not 100% sure if I need to use Opponent-filters at all in this case, could this all be done just with Player filter? Maybe I need to use the opponent to make sure that the raise Player is facing is an openraise and not just any 2Bet?

At first glance the 3Bet vs open from position X seems pretty simple, but when creating and testing it and thinking about possible scenarios with further action, especially with the all-in/non-all-in situations and 3+ bets, then it becomes a bit complicated IMO.

Any comments would be appreciated!

[BillGatesIII]

I think you're on the right track. Let's see...

Player:
- Players Dealt into Hand Between 4 and 6
- Position of First Raiser Position of Selected Exactly 2
- Raised Preflop Any 3Bet
- NOT (Squeezed)
- NOT (Raised All-In)
- Actual Stack Size Big Blinds Between 8 and 100
- 3Bet Size Multiple of the 2Bet Between 1.50 and 3

Those last two are to exclude shortstacks and the 'I've seen Collin Moshman/Katie Dozier do it so let's copycat' not all-in all-ins players

Opponent:
- First Action Opportunity to Open the Pot
- Raised First In
- NOT (Raised All-In)
- Actual Stack Size Big Blinds Between 8 and 100

Hmm... You cannot filter for the opponent's 2Bet size... So I think you'll have to add another one to Player.
- Sizes Calculated in Big Blinds Preflop Action Faced With Size 2Bet Preflop in Selected Measurement Between 2 and 4

I run a test on 10.000 hands (including hero) and got exactly 1 result, which was correct btw, so maybe the note is a little to specific

[PeteX]

Ok, BillGatesIII, here's what I came up with, how does the following look for "3Bet vs EP Open":

Player:
a) Players Dealt Into Hand Between 4 and 6
b) Reraise Opportunity 3Bet (Facing 2Bet)
c) Raised Preflop Any 3Bet
d) First Preflop Action Raise
e) (NOT (Raised All-In)) OR ((Raised Preflop 5Bet+ (5Bets or Greater) AND (Raised All-In))

So the idea of e) is that EITHER the 3bettor didn't raise all-in at all OR he raised all-in but his all-in raise happened with 5Bet+ -> So this would mean that the 3bettor could not have specifically 3bet all-in but he still might have eventually ended up raising all-in with some later raise after that.

Opponent:
a) Raised First In
b) Position of Active Player Position of Selected Exactly 3
-> According to my testing it looks like "Active Player" here is really same as "Opponent"
c) (NOT Raised All-In) OR (((Raised Preflop Any 4Bet) OR (Raised Preflop 5Bet+ (5Bets or Greater))) AND (Raised All-In))

So here c) Is same idea: The open raiser EITHER doesn't raise all-in at all OR he raises all-in but only with 4Bet or 5Bet+, he never open-shoves.

Does this make sense?

There seems to be one annoying thing missing from NoteTracker: The ability to compare raise sizes or facing raise-sizes to players stacks. It would be nice if I could set e.g. open-raisers filter so that it would match when players raise size is e.g. < 0.5 times players stack size. Because, let's say the player raises something like 0,7 x his stack size -> I'd def consider that same as all-in when thinkin if I have any fold equity vs him. And some people do raise to weird sizes that are practically all-ins but do not fall under the all-in-flag int he definitions.

[PeteX]

Ah, forgot "NOT (Squeezed)" which is ofc crucial for Player...

[BillGatesIII]

...

Does this make sense?

There seems to be one annoying thing missing from NoteTracker: The ability to compare raise sizes or facing raise-sizes to players stacks. It would be nice if I could set e.g. open-raisers filter so that it would match when players raise size is e.g. < 0.5 times players stack size. Because, let's say the player raises something like 0,7 x his stack size -> I'd def consider that same as all-in when thinkin if I have any fold equity vs him. And some people do raise to weird sizes that are practically all-ins but do not fall under the all-in-flag int he definitions.

Yep, makes sense.

And you could add
Reraise Opportunity 4Bet (Facing 3Bet)
to the Opponent filter to tackle the sizing problem.

[PeteX]

Well, I noticed that actually the filter doesn't quit work. And I don't think the Reraise 4Bet Opp works either...

See this kind of scenario, which isn't really that far fetched from SNGs.
EP (Stack 1000) -> Opens to 100 (OK)
MP (Stack 1000) -> 3Bets to 300 (OK)
CO (Stack 2000) -> Shoves!!!
-> What now? No 4Bet opp for EP... But EP and MP did exatly what I wanted, open-raise + 3Bet and neither were all-in...
EP: Calls All-In
MP: We don't care what he does, well, prolly called also because we know his cards

So, I came up with these monsters:
Player:
- ((NOT (Raised All-In)) OR ((Raised Preflop 5Bet+ (5Bets or Greater)) AND (Raised All-In))) OR ((Called Preflop Any Call) AND (Went All-In))
Adding this "((Called Preflop Any Call) AND (Went All-In))" includes the above hand in the filter.

Opponent:
- ((Called Preflop Any Call) AND (Went All-In)) OR (NOT (Raised All-In)) OR (((Raised Preflop Any 4Bet) OR (Raised Preflop 5Bet+ (5Bets or Greater))) AND (Raised All-In))

I was trying for the 4bet opp earlier, but then noticed that if a bigger stack shoves after the 3bettor, there is really no 4bet opportunity but the 3bettor should still get the note.

[BillGatesIII]

Good thinking. And I agree we need a 'Action with Size in % of Stack' filter.

[PeteX]

Ok, I've tested my note now with roughly ~50 negative/positive hands and IMO it looks like it's working exactly as I expect it to (as described in the OP). What this filter can't detect for example, is that if the 3bet is big enough to be effectively all-in (like 70% of the dudes stack), because there is no way to compare the raise/3bet size to player stack sizes. Nothing I can do about that.

For the benefit of community, here are my final filter settings (for 3Bet vs MP (6-max positions) as an example, modify to suit your needs):