Preflop Cold Calling 3Bets+ in PTv4.10.8

[whiskyjohn]

Hello,

I'm having a problem with Preflop Cold Calls of 3Bets+ in PTv4.10.8 and I am hoping someone
can help me understand what is going on.

I have stats for Full Ring Limit Holdem. If I go to the Holdem Hand Range Visualizer and
check "Voluntarily Put Money into Pot %" and enable the filter "Cold Called Preflop Cold Called 3 Bet",
I get the Heat Map boxes and then a listing of hands that match the criteria for each box.

The big problem is when I replay those hands, I am getting a bunch of examples that I DO NOT
consider cold calls. I am getting limp/calls of 3 Bets and I am getting 3 Bet calls from the blinds.
I thought a cold call by definition can never occur from the blinds and could never occur as a
second action (such as a limp/call or a raise/call).

Can someone please check that this filter is working correctly? Either my PT version is messed
up or my understanding of a cold call is!


Thanks,
John

[kraada]

Specifically for cold calls of 3bets or higher the definition is calling a 3bet when you didn't make the 2bet (and for a 4bet it's if you didn't make the 3bet and so on). So a limp/call will count if you didn't face the 2bet in the middle. We know this is a departure from how cold calling works for 2bets but the definition has evolved some from its original limit days. If you want only times when it was a true cold call (no money in the pot at all), adding that you didn't limp or face a 2bet via More Filters should get rid of the hands you want gone.

[whiskyjohn]

Specifically for cold calls of 3bets or higher the definition is calling a 3bet when you didn't make the 2bet (and for a 4bet it's if you didn't make the 3bet and so on). So a limp/call will count if you didn't face the 2bet in the middle. We know this is a departure from how cold calling works for 2bets but the definition has evolved some from its original limit days. If you want only times when it was a true cold call (no money in the pot at all), adding that you didn't limp or face a 2bet via More Filters should get rid of the hands you want gone.

Ok I can set up the proper filters but it all seems highly convoluted. I would think most people would interpret "Preflop Cold Called 3Bet"
as never applying to a limp/face 2Bet! I don't see the rationale behind that at all. I want to see the hand ranges of opponents who truly
have to call 3 Bets Cold (and do so without capping btw). Moreover, when one involuntarily puts money into the pot, they are far more
likely to call a 2bet with a weaker range. I have to give a giant "boo!" to this definition of "Cold Call" unless someone can get me a better
explanation.

Dissenting John

[kraada]

We talked to several industry experts and pros who concurred with this new definition when limited to higher range "cold calling" -- it makes a lot more sense when you are thinking about no limit and pot limit games. When you've limped and then you're facing a 3bet in NL you've got 1BB in and are facing something like 8BB to call -- your 1 BB you have in is a lot less relevant.

[whiskyjohn]

We talked to several industry experts and pros who concurred with this new definition when limited to higher range "cold calling" -- it makes a lot more sense when you are thinking about no limit and pot limit games. When you've limped and then you're facing a 3bet in NL you've got 1BB in and are facing something like 8BB to call -- your 1 BB you have in is a lot less relevant.

Well I certainly agree with the logic behind wanting such a stat, especially in a NL or PL game. I just disagree with referring to it as
a "cold call" since the whole point of the word "cold" (so I thought) was that the player has not put any money into the pot (at least
voluntarily). Your own definition of "Cold Call 2Bet PF" specifically states this! I see that definition has changed in the "Cold Call
3Bet+ PF" stat. Even that definition is rather murky (unfriendly) and one has to think through all the implications of what
"a player called a preflop 3Bet or higher without having made the immediately previous raise" means.

Without resorting to a semantic debate, I would challenge you to present a series of qualifying hands to various Pokertracker users
and ask them to pick out the 3Bet+ cold calls. Since I do like to make bets (of course!) I would bet a significant percentage of your own
users would get these wrong. For those who don't use the software but are active players who think they know what a "cold call" is,
I would bet an even higher percentage disagree.

Anyway, you may want to consider introducing "True Cold Call" or some other terminology so others will be less likely to waste
several hours trying to figure out why their filter isn't working the way they thought it should.

Two Cent John