no flg_f_donk still?

[pasita]

The 2bet call and 3bet call are very different situations. That's why we have two distinct stats for them: Donk Flop is the 2bet case and Donk Flop in 3Bet+ Pot is for the 3bet (or higher) case.

Looking at the stat expressions, it would seem to me Donk Flop is the generic case, then there's Donk in 3! and Donk in non-3! pots. ( But when looking at the columns cnt_f_donk and cnt_f_donk_3bet_pot, neither allows a preflop 3+bettor to donk flop even when villain put in the last raise, imo.)

Donk Flop:
(cnt_f_donk / cnt_f_donk_opp) * 100

Donk Flop in 3Bet+ Pot
(cnt_f_donk_3bet_pot / cnt_f_donk_opp_3bet_pot) * 100

Donk Flop in non-3Bet+ Pot
((cnt_f_donk - cnt_f_donk_3bet_pot) / (cnt_f_donk_opp - cnt_f_donk_opp_3bet_pot)) * 100

[pasita]

Still confused... am I correct to assume that if I 3!-call pre and lead flop OOP, it's not a donkbet in PT stats? If so, are you planning to fix it?

[pasita]

FWIW, in PT3, cnt_f_donk_custom (which I believe is the custom stat by kraada) does not limit the donkbettor from having 3+bet preflop. But the cnt_f_donk, which was introduced later as a default stat to PT3 iirc now does exlude the "3bet and call a raise, donk flop" scenario imo. And the PT4 stat seems to work the same way.

[pasita]

I'm still confused by this. I'll make it a breeze to answer:)

a) hero is reading the columns wrong
b) the stat is actually built wrong
c) the stat is right and PT now defines a donk is valid only when the donker didn't 3+bet pre
d) we don't know yet, we're busy with the sales release but will look into this after that

[kraada]

Honestly I really think you're worrying about this too much. Between the built in columns cnt_f_donk and cnt_f_donk_3bet_pot you can build your total version if you want it - and since it uses built in columns there is no slowdown at all. This definition is a little bit quirky but it's been done so for legacy reasons and is unlikely to be revisited in the near future.

[pasita]

I tend to worry about things I don't understand:( The latest addition to that list is what do you mean by the total stat, using built in columns. I get the feeling that while I'm (mainly) trying to talk about donking after 3betting (and facing a raise), you're mainly talking about donking after being 3bet, i.e. we're talking about different things.

cnt_f_donk_3bet_pot:

sum(if[(cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_3bet_def_opp OR cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_4bet_def_opp) AND NOT (cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_3bet OR cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_4bet) AND cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_bet AND NOT (cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_cbet_opp) AND ((cash_hand_summary.cnt_players > 2 AND cash_hand_player_statistics.val_p_raise_aggressor_pos < cash_hand_player_statistics.position) or (cash_hand_summary.cnt_players = 2 and cash_hand_player_statistics.flg_blind_b)), 1, 0])

Doesn't the built in column specifically exclude a case when a player 3bets preflop and calls a raise, then leads the flop against the last preflop aggressor? If so, is this intentional, i.e. is this what you mean by legacy reasons? I can fix the stat to resemble my understanding of what a donk bet is by removing the bolded part but I'd rather use a built in stat in case you're doing something about it.

Also still unclear about donking on later streets: does it have to be a lead bet against a contbettor, preflop raiser (those from the stat definitions) or anyone who put in the last aggressive action on the previous street (as I would understand a donk bet)?

[kraada]

For the flop donk bet the bet has to be before the person who would be able to cbet - that would be the last preflop aggressor.

Honestly if you're that interested in people's ranges after they 3bet and call a 4bet and lead out on the flop it might be best to create a NoteTracker note for it. It's going to be exceedingly rare a situation and that's the only case that's not covered. The 3bet pot stat is for when you 2bet and call a 3bet and the unspecified stat is for when you call a 2bet OOP.

I'm certain that your 3bet/call a 4b stat is going to be excessively rare - I'd expect even at full stacked full ring to see less than one instance in 10,000 hands at best.

[pasita]

"Also still unclear about donking on later streets", I meant after flop... I can't get that info from reading columns as the flag is built in.

BTW your estimate was off at about one order of magnitude (FL 6max). Similar(ish) results for PLO. These are games where there's often still play postflop when it's 4bet pre. Some people seem to do this once every 100 hands (total, not opportunities) so it's near 100% of opportunities. Things may be different in NLHE, though.

When I remove the NOT from the column (see earlier post) and do the same for opportunities, I get plenty of people who have both larger amount and larger percentage of donking out when they were the 3 bettor, compared to when they were 3 bet.

I'd certainly make this an autonote but the cardrange doesn't do much for me once the flop is dealt... hoping to see a handstrength variable in auto notes soon. (Yeah I could use cardrange and the flop cards but reading into dozens of those gametime isn't going to be very productive).

But we can leave the topic once you let me know how exactly do the flg_t_donk and flg_r_donk get set:)

[kraada]

flg_t_donk and flg_r_donk are set when a bet is made out of position prior to the action of the last aggressor on the street immediately prior.

[pasita]

OK, thanks. In that case you have errors/inconsistensies in the Detailed Descriptions (statistics editor, Details "tab") of all of the 6 built in Donk stats for turn and river.