Tournament Note - Calling All-In (Covering vs. At Risk)

[sfifield]

I'm trying to create some automatic notes for all-in moves in tournaments and am running into some issues. Specifically, I am trying to create a note for (1) when a player raises all-in preflop (where the player in question is the raiser, and is not calling an all-in), (2) when a player calls all-in preflop and is at risk (where the player's opponent raises enough to put the player all in (whether or not the opponent is all in) and the player calls), and (3) when a player calls an all-in preflop and is not at risk (where the player's opponent shoves all in, but the player in question covers and is not at risk).

The criteria for the Notetrackers I have created are as follows:

Shove All-In
Player = (Raised All-In)
This appears to work and return a result when the player shoves, but not when the player calls an all in.

Call All-In (At Risk)
Player = (Went All-In) AND NOT(Raised All-In)
This returns a result for both (2) and (3) - i.e., where a player calls an all-in, whether or not the player is at risk.

Call All-In (Covering)
Player = NOT(Went All-In) AND NOT(Folded Preflop Any Fold)
Opponent = (Raised All-In)
This doesn't appear to return any results - even when the player calls an opponent's all-in, but is not at risk.

What is the "Went All-In" criteria (under the Preflop Calls filter) triggered by? It appears to have a positive result whenever a player is in a hand with one of the two players in the hand (whether the player or the opponent) is all in. Is there a way to distinguish between when the caller has the shover covered?

[kraada]

"Went All-In" is triggered when you saw a flop and did not take any action on it - you went all in one way or another.

If you want to eliminate times you made the actual raise you can use NOT( Preflop Any Raise) and that will eliminate the raises all in.

[sfifield]

"Went All-In" is triggered when you saw a flop and did not take any action on it - you went all in one way or another.

If you want to eliminate times you made the actual raise you can use NOT( Preflop Any Raise) and that will eliminate the raises all in.

Won't that also eliminate hands where the hero opens to 3x, faces an overbet 3-bet and calls? I would want that to show up as calling an all-in preflop, but if the test for calling an all-in is ((Went All-In) AND (NOT( Preflop Any Raise))), this won't be triggered when the hero is the original raiser and calls an all-in.

In any event, I'm not sure I understand the distinction between "Raise All In" (Preflop) and "Went All In" (Preflop).

Also, is there a way to filter All-ins by who is covering? In some circumstances a player may play tighter when faced with the choice of calling an all-in that puts them at risk, as opposed to a big stack calling a shove by a short-stack.

[kraada]

That's a good point. One thing you could do to catch this kind of spot instead of using NOT(Any Raise) would be to use the Preflop Action Sequence area - you could do:
First Action Call OR Section Action Call OR Third Action Call OR Fourth Action Call or Fifth Action Call

Then at some point you've made a call - since you faced an all in and made a call somewhere it's very likely that the call was of the all-in (unless there are strange squeezes going on but those are awfully rare - and you can add NOT(facing squeeze) to be certain if you'd like).

[sfifield]

That's a good point. One thing you could do to catch this kind of spot instead of using NOT(Any Raise) would be to use the Preflop Action Sequence area - you could do:
First Action Call OR Section Action Call OR Third Action Call OR Fourth Action Call or Fifth Action Call

Then at some point you've made a call - since you faced an all in and made a call somewhere it's very likely that the call was of the all-in (unless there are strange squeezes going on but those are awfully rare - and you can add NOT(facing squeeze) to be certain if you'd like).

Thanks. I came up with something similar:
Hero: Called Preflop Called 2bet OR Called 3bet OR Called 4bet OR Called 5+bet) AND (NOT(Folded Preflop Any Fold)
Opponent: Raised All-In

It sounds like there isn't a way to distinguish between calling a villain's all-in when hero has villain covered vs. when hero would be at risk to make the call. Correct?

[kraada]

Not with just one filter, no.

[BillGatesIII]

Interesting topic.

I think it's possible to create such notes if
- you define notes for specific stack size ranges
and
- define covered as like having 10bb more than villain has

For example:

[kraada]

Yes if you're looking at calling open shoves that kind of technique will work I think, but you'll have to pick specific ranges.

[BillGatesIII]

Yes if you're looking at calling open shoves that kind of technique will work I think, but you'll have to pick specific ranges.

Why do you say 'calling open shoves'? Is 'Raise all in' for open shove only? I thought it was for any kind of preflop all in (like raise, 3bet, all-in).

Picking specific ranges does make sense I guess. Calling an all in for 2bb with 74o seems much better to me than calling an all in for 30bb with K9o

As said in another thread, having a {stacksize} variable in the automatic notes would be nice

[kraada]

That variable has been requested - having it be effective BBs or something might even be best - and it's on my list to look into when we look at more variables.

I'm not sure why I said open shoves, you're right that it'll work with any all-in raise.