Weeding Notes

[whiskyjohn]

You can get rid of older data by using the purge by date options (which should run faster, according to my tests) and you can also set NT to only take notes on hands that occurred after a certain point. So on the first of the month you could purge data older than, say, 3 months and update the note taking time and only see the most recent 3 months of data.

If any hand has been proven to be in his range, it is listed, and the count is the number of shown down hands we've seen.

I don't think you understood what I was asking for kraada.

I know I can get rid of *all* data after a certain point. That's not what I want at all! I want to get rid of unreliable/outdated
hands matching individual rules. I gave examples of this in my post. If a player drops a range of hands because he learns it is
unprofitable to play them for a given position, then I would like to remove those hands from the range. I still want to keep
*everything else*, including all the old data. If raising 44 UTG was in his range a year ago, and is still in his range today, then
I want that information. But if he stopped raising 44 a year ago, I want to drop it from the range and keep everything else.

Quite simply, I want to track how the player's hand range has *evolved*.

Once the cardrange is assembled, I have no idea if a specific hand in that range was played today, yesterday, or a year ago!
I don't even know how many times that specific hand was played at all. The only thing I know is the sample size. I asked if
PokerTracker internally keeps track of how many times each hand was played, or is this information lost when updating the
sample size?

I spent more than a few minutes discussing the features that might be useful with those cardranges. Please spend a few
minutes considering what am requesting. The ability to take autonotes based on custom rules is powerful. But the design
is terribly flawed and so much information is lost! That was the point of my post(s). More development is needed.

John

[kraada]

I understand what you want to do, and I agree if we could do it, it would be extremly nice -- but it is not logistically possible to be certain that a hand has been removed from a player's range. You only see his hands when he in fact gets to showdown -- so there are many, many times he takes preflop actions and you never get to see his hole cards.

Your theoretical opponent here showed down 72o once. We don't know how many times he didn't show it down -- and we can't know. All we know is he did in fact show it down once.

Some players do make drastic shifts in their play and, if you segregated their stats properly, you'd see drastic shifts, but PokerTracker simply isn't sophisticated enough to figure that out on its own. However, in my experience that's not the norm. Most players change their play in small ways gradually over time, and there's no way to directly make a negative inference that some hand is definitely no longer in the player's range. You can only make positive inference for certain.

[whiskyjohn]

I understand what you want to do, and I agree if we could do it, it would be extremly nice -- but it is not logistically possible to be certain that a hand has been removed from a player's range. You only see his hands when he in fact gets to showdown -- so there are many, many times he takes preflop actions and you never get to see his hole cards.

Yes of course. The entire cardrange is comprised of hands that went to showdown. That doesn't alter my topic at all.

Your theoretical opponent here showed down 72o once. We don't know how many times he didn't show it down -- and we can't know. All we know is he did in fact show it down once.

Yes of course. Let's try again. Assume the cardranges were written this way in Autonotes:

EP.RFI{AA(20),KK(19),QQ(18),JJ(17),TT(16),AKs(40),AQs(35),AJs(25),KQs(25),KJs(20),QJs(20),JTs(18),AKo(80),AQo(70),AJo(50),T9s(7),98s(5),87s(4), 72o(1)} (Sum)

Now we know the *exact* breakdown of how many times each hand in the range went to showdown. Now I am not advocating
the note actually gets written this way. I'm just making a point. If I could somehow click on the cardrange and get this exact
breakdown then I could see 72o only went to showdown once. Now what would you infer from this? I would infer he probably
was being cute and maybe his 72o even won the showdown. I would not infer this hand is in his regular range! Therefore, if
I could set a counter > 0 for each possible hand, I could eliminate 72o from being displayed in the range. The data would still
be there if I reset the counter to 0.

Similarly, I could look at hands T9s-87s and see the numbers are smaller than the others. Now of course those hands don't go
to showdown and win as often so they will naturally be smaller for this reason. However, if the difference is significant, it
would be nice to look at all the times those hands were played. If I find they were all in the range over 1 year ago, for example,
I could again elect to filter them out of the display.

Some players do make drastic shifts in their play and, if you segregated their stats properly, you'd see drastic shifts, but PokerTracker simply isn't sophisticated enough to figure that out on its own. However, in my experience that's not the norm. Most players change their play in small ways gradually over time, and there's no way to directly make a negative inference that some hand is definitely no longer in the player's range. You can only make positive inference for certain.

I don't expect PT to figure it out on its own. I just want the flexibility to analyze the sequence and make that determination myself.
I agree drastic shifts in a players range is not the norm. But it does happen! I have definite proof of this in my database! The cool
thing about the ability to set counters and an expiration date (I guess that's a good way to call it) for each hand is that hands would
automatically disappear and reappear in the notes if that player stopped/started playing the hands according to the rules set in advance.

Very helpful I think! And not too difficult to keep track of, if and only if the information is not lost when processing all the notes.
This is the question I asked. You didn't answer it. Does PT know the exact breakdown or is the information lost?

Comments?

John

[kraada]

We did consider the exploded view you describe in the initial development, but we felt after careful consideration that having a series of lines like you describe was too much information to be used meaningfully in the moment. At the table you have only a few seconds to make a decision and parsing a range like that in a few seconds to attempt to decide how to respond is not going to be possible for most people -- I know I couldn't.

The information is of course still in PT4, though. If you want to analyze a specific player's full range what you're best off doing is setting that player as the Player in the left hand sidebar, and choosing the Statistics tab and the Holdem Hand Range Visualizer. That will show you his range for whatever stat you select (and the small wrench icon lets you add more stats if you want), and you can click on each cell to see the individual hands including when they occurred. You can also use date filters (or any other filter) with this report so you have full flexibility. It sounds like you want to do in depth analysis of one or more of your opponents -- and I think this report will do what you're looking for much better than notes.

Of course, if you want to make specific notes on that player, you can also do that via the replayer and look at them later at the table.

[whiskyjohn]

We did consider the exploded view you describe in the initial development, but we felt after careful consideration that having a series of lines like you describe was too much information to be used meaningfully in the moment. At the table you have only a few seconds to make a decision and parsing a range like that in a few seconds to attempt to decide how to respond is not going to be possible for most people -- I know I couldn't.

Neither could I. That's why I said I wouldn't recommend displaying the ranges that way. Indeed, the subject of my post
here is "Weeding Notes", and part of that process is weeding out information in the cardranges that is of little/no use.
And 72o(1) is of no use. In fact it is just distracting during play.

Since I cannot directly edit the line to remove a rare hand like 72o, or hands which have been played past expiration,
I want the ability to set conditions on what hands actually show up in that range. This *reduces* information and makes
the line even faster to scan in the heat of battle, with more relevant information!

All my suggestions for exploding the notes would be useful while sitting out, folding and waiting for the next hand, or
offline evaluation.

The information is of course still in PT4, though. If you want to analyze a specific player's full range what you're best off doing is setting that player as the Player in the left hand sidebar, and choosing the Statistics tab and the Holdem Hand Range Visualizer. That will show you his range for whatever stat you select (and the small wrench icon lets you add more stats if you want), and you can click on each cell to see the individual hands including when they occurred. You can also use date filters (or any other filter) with this report so you have full flexibility. It sounds like you want to do in depth analysis of one or more of your opponents -- and I think this report will do what you're looking for much better than notes.

Of course, if you want to make specific notes on that player, you can also do that via the replayer and look at them later at the table.

And this is *EXACTLY* what I have been doing! Except it isn't just one or two opponents. There are at least 100 opponents for whom I want a
detailed set of cardranges for given conditions. But even partial cardranges for players I rarely see are still very helpful. On my own, I take
notes on EVERY player I see. The ability to write autonote rules is great! It saves me the trouble of doing all that work manually using
the Hand Range Visualizer. Now I want the ability to fine tune what shows up in those cardrange lines. Then if I find something interesting, I can
go back to the Hand Range Visualizer and check out exactly when these hands are played, and how. That was one of the key features I mentioned
in a few posts above.

Improve the ability to take, purge, edit, and examine notes on a individual player and NoteTracker would be a far more useful and powerful tool.

John

[preparac]

Notes are recreated in date order with the newest hands processed first so that you always have the most relevant notes first.

Can I stop the processing. Stop pokertracker and continue the processing where it stopped later?
Thanxs

[WhiteRider]

Yes.

[preparac]

thanx